The Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

Giving the lenders goverment funds seems to have been counter productive. The government should stop giving money to the lenders and give it DIRECTLY to the Buyers at Closing for incentives.

Chris - Ugh.  I feel for you on that one.  The rudeness of some people is aggravating.  You did just give me fodder for a post, now I just have to find some time to write it.  I feel like there's so much going on - I love it.  Bring it on.

 I'm getting close to the same story with one of my short sales too.  No one has yelled at me yet but they seem to have dug their feet in the sand are willing to take the foreclosure hit than deal with a willing buyer.

WOW!  It's hard to believe two reps in the same day would be so rude!  I've been chasing ghosts just trying to get answers about HUD properties.  I guess that's another area in which you cannot be helped.  Sorry things didn't work out for your seller. :(

~Chanda

I have to tell you, I'm shocked.  I deal with TD Bank here, and I have answers back within 24 hours - all the time.  I may wait 48 hours once or twice a year... generally, I'm looked after within 24 hours.  They are also the bank that is most willing to help my clients, and most flexible with their terms.  I can't believe that things are so different there.

I would definitely send this to the Head Office.  They take things like this very, very seriously here.  Someone could get into a lot of trouble. 

Geez, guys.

It is so unfortunate that they won't TRY TO HELP at all!

They are grumpy, huh?

What a horrible day.. How disappointing....It will certainly cost more money to foreclose than to move forward with a short sale..Of course I do not know the terms or conditions..but I do know you..Things are certainly difficult these days ..aren't they? very interesting twitter ..Thank you

 HelpfulHannah selling Real Estate in Philadelphia

Too bad this had to happen to you -- but the banks area behaving like this -- so don't feel picked on.

Like you said, makes you wonder.  The banks are fighting toxic assets and still they act like they are doing people favors.  Maybe just maybe, they should be allowed to hold onto the assets for awhile and as they get closer to going down the drain, they may start to wake up.  Who knows, maybe they want to go under, they act like it.

I'm seeing that rudeness in many areas now and I can only hope it will get better and not worse.

Ron - That's the problem, I'm not sure even the "going down the drain" will wake anyone up.  Afterall, they went from being "fine" to suddenly needing a few billion overnight in some cases.  Now I can understand waking up and thinking, oh darn, I should have hit the ATM on my way to work today, but not - uh-oh, I'm short a few billion that I didn't notice I had lost.

What a nightmare. I just cannot comprehend how some people can be so rude, no matter what the circumstance. I wonder if they are doing this to all of their short sales - letting them foreclose? ~Rita

Dan- That is certainly one idea.  The tax credit fell into that category.  However, I was really hoping for a tax credit available to ALL purchasers, not just first time home-buyers.

Matt- As you know, we rarely have rant posts like this.  But the day was so frustrating we felt we just had to get this story out there.  I found it appalling how they have handled this deal and the communication involved has been extremely poor.  We have done numerous short sales all with different banks.  This one has been the worst experience by far.  The person that does speak to the seller every once in awhile never has the info in front of her and is constantly contradicting herself.  We would be okay with a "No" but are not okay with the way it was communicated.  

Cindy - Good luck with your deal.  Keep us posted on how you make out.  I just do not understand taking the foreclosure option over the short sale option.  In our case, the property will probably be ravaged and vandalized and worth a lot less than versus what they could get now.  And with everything we hear on the news regarding politics, the programs are in place to avoid foreclosure, not have it is a goal...

 

 

Never heard of this bank, how unfortunate for your sellers. I have a new listing going in today. My client tried a loan mod and no cigar.

However when I called to get the fax number the opening message was, "we want to help you modify the loan, there are lots of scammers out there, call us first".

Oh yea I couldn't believe my ears.

These banks are not trying to help anyone but themselves. Most of them do not even try to work with the consumers.  If someone falls back on a car loan, they can usually pay some interest and add those payments to the end of the laon, not so with mortgages.   I had a client who ended up having to do a short sale ONLY because the bank sent bank two months of payments that she sent because she was three back. They added all kinds of late charges, legal fees etc without which the bank would of received a full payoff when sold.  

Chris and Stephanie, I actually called the Vice President's Office here, and asked who would be responsible, and they said that unfortunately, the two banks are not connected.... and that the USA side of the business is not managed by this side. 

I was told that you should call the customer service line there 1-888-751-9000 and ask for the Regional Vice President's Office for your area, and speak with them directly.
I explained briefly what your blog spoke about, and had that been here, you would have had a resolution today, however, unfortunately, as I said, they are totally separate and one doesn't interfere with the other.

I hope you get somewhere with the Regional VP's office. 
They are amazing here.  I hope they are just as good there.

 

Wow that is just crazy Chris. It is stories like this that never cease to amaze me. It would be great to be a fly on the wall to know exactly what the decision process is to determine whether or not they just head to foreclosure.

It just shows that those in the "decision-making" are not stakeholder in the process.  They get paid regardless of how they treat callers or work the processes.  Too sad.

There are a lot of issues here ... but facts are facts:

Whoever owns the note has the right to act anyway they want. To portray the sellers as victims seems to be a stretch as they willingly cashed out.

With that being said, I don't want ANY government money going to any institution that isn't trying to mitigate their losses. Let them succeed or fail on their own decisions, whether they are logical or not!

I have never heard of this bank. I will keep an eye on your blog to find out what has happened to your seller.

Bettina

Chris-that stinks and I have heard of this happening more and more...

http://www.td.com/president.jsp that would be my next phone call and email! :)

TD Bank is originally from Canada Missy. They most recently took over Commerce. The branch that is responding so poorly to our client's hardship is the Mount Laurel New Jersey Branch of TD Bank. At lease that is where all of our client's mail is addressed from. The voice message we have to listen to when we are on hold is so pleasant it makes me laugh at the irony of their hideous customer service representatives. I wonder when they say "These calls are recorded." if they really are? It would make your jaw drop to listen to them.

Linda, You may be right regarding the short sale staff  and service reps at TD. I know that it is not TD's intentions to ultimately harm their customers. I can only assume by the behavior and lower level communication skills demonstrated by the TD Bank customer service representatives I spoke to that those particular employees are erroneously governing the outcome of innocent hard working people on a daily basis. A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

It is a gross cluster of injustice for my client.

It is an utter shame for TD Bank.

 

http://www.td.com/contact.jsp  Meant to add this in the last comment!  I have figured out paid employees do not have the same care or concern as shareholders and CEO's!

While I don't have any experience with this bank, I have seen this same thing happen - and it hit close to home.  My son was renting a home that was going to foreclosure, and the bank would not consider a cash offer for approximately $60,000 less than the mortgage.  Instead, they foreclosed and got $130,00 less a year later, long after my son had moved on.

That's just poor management. With so much more to lose by not taking the deal they certainly didn't help their bottom line any. I'll re-blog the post, print it and send it to a local TD manager. Maybe we can start the revolution from this side.

Chris & Stephanie - These are truly difficult times for all of us , the employees of the bank as well. They did not have a right to react to your calls in the manner which they did , but I am sure the guilt they feel for the decisions their company is making must be very extreme. In these tough economic times they can't even quit and walk out , where would they find another job and then there home wold end up just like your clients. (In their mind) Their reaction sounds more like fear than anything else.

I've never done a deal with TD bank but I do alot of short sales. All I can say is thank God I have an attorney spearheading my short sale efforts. My success rate went from 25% to 95% with that move.

Funny you should post this. I am going to post soemthing later today about the short sales I had fail in the past because the offers weren't high enough. One 225k offer that was denied sold at foreclosure for $137,000 6 months later.

The banks look at their net from a short sale and their net from a foreclosures. 

What many agents don't know is that the banks, even if they sell for sell through foreclosure, can carry that loss back 5 years on their taxes.  That's a big benefit. 

Of course, they need the "set aside" reserve, but HEY, TARP gave them that.

This is a fight that agents cannot win.  Clearly the LTV for that property is not within the banks required "net". 

 

Not to uphold the employees attitudes (which are despicable) often its an attitude from the top downward that employees convey.  Somewhere in that bank are supervisorary persons who have a bad attitude and have absolutely no empathy or compassion or business sense about helping a customer.  I do not know that bank personally, I have not dealt with them, but my guess would be you need to move beyond supervisor, bank manager etc to regional director level. 

I think everyone involved here needs some empathy, for the seller, who would like to do as much as he/she can to resolve the issue, with the buyers, the agents and even for the customer service reps who have certainly lost their way in real Customer Service.

Chris and I at this juncture are more interested in being able to understand why the short sale was denied so that we can communicate that to the seller.

The seller has a right to know that the decision has a basis of logic behind it.

And as Realtors, we want to understand the process. It is human nature to want to see and understand the mechanics of the machines we use. It makes us better at what we do.

Lenn, if you are right and the reason TD Bank wants to opt for foreclosure is so they have enough collateral damage to get tax benefits then there is a problem.That type of problem solving is the problem!

The tax advantages are one thing but more importantly the bigger and perhaps better goal for our banks including TD Bank is to get capital back on their balance sheet right now. Capital is KING. Clear the inventory of dollar heavy homes instead of recycling them month after month and year after year. The consumer will benefit, the community will gain value again, and the banking industry will improve as well as the economy. This is approach is more holistic (if you will).

Thanks for everyone who has commented on this blog post. We will take all of your advice and see if we are being listened to. I know our client thanks you as well.

It still baffles me every time I see the Government's unwillingness to end this Recession!  Everyone admits the causebehind the economic Tsunami is a direct result of a period of high unregulated gasoline prices combined with mortgage rates adjusting to unattainable heights.  Now if they could use a little common sense, they would use the "Sstimulus Money" to make low interest, extended term loans, based on current appraisals to all the home owners in trouble.  I don't think I can stand seeing our Government throw much more of our tax dollars down the Bankers well!  We all need to contact our Congressman and tell them we have had enough!

No experience with this bank but you think they could be more friendly about things.

There's no excuse for rudeness. I'm sure that is not what they received from you so for them to respond that way is inexcuseable.  Their decision about their loan is exactly that, their decision.  They hold the mortgage BUT rudeness about it is not the answer.   I've never heard of this bank.

Was it an insured loan?  A lot of the banks i am dealing with won't do shorts on a Fannie or Freddie backed loan unless it is over 85% LTV.  If that was the case i can understand the lack of cooperation but never the rudeness.  Why be mean to the person about to solve your problem? 

Unfortunately, this seems to be more common than it should be.  We had a similar situation in our office and now it's one year later and they have accepted an offer on the foreclosure for $5,000 less not to mention all the fees, taxes, maintenance, etc. they have incurred.  It just doesn't make a lot of business sense to me.

Regardless of the willingness of a bank to accept an offer the overwhelming lack of consideration and professionalism seems to be a bigger corporate problem here!

WOW is right!  I hope to hear eventually that you got some resolution to your question! 

Wow, so rude.

What a story!  Fortunately I'm not seeing that right now in my market, but things could change.  What I am seeing that is coming back is second lenders are not willing to take the magic $3,000  on a short sale and forcing the sellers into bankruptcy.  It seems that some of the reprsentatives at the banks are making poor decisions and behaving very unprofessional--but do the higher ups know that?  They should!

Wow, have not worked with TD bank, but I am having some issues  with short sales where they will not release the seller from liability and reserve the right to collect the difference.  These are folks who have no assets, who are losing everything and are scared to death.  I really need them to talk to an atty, but they do not have the money to do so.....I just don't know what to do for them.  We call and call and email and sometimes we can get through to some one who makes a difference and sometimes we cannot.....

 

So sorry you have worked so hard for this client and had this result!

We engaged in a short sale with a great offer some time ago. Despite MONTHS of haggling, they made the decision NOT to pay a real estate agent (1, at 2%- the selling agent), and an additional $3500.00 (you're reading it right) to get the thing done. Their "balance due" included thousands of dollars in late charges/fees, which were included in the offered amount. The shortage was 2%, and $3500.00.

Turns out that they were in the process of an investigation and ultimately shut down (Fremont Investments).

Would have been nice to know that they were in jeopardy, and almost gone, when we started the process.

It ultimately sold for just shy of $150k less than our offer.

Hey "what every happened to common decency?" It fast becoming a lost art.

Patricia Aulson/Portsmouth NH Real Estate

I'm so sorry this happened to you (and your clients) but I am not at ALL surprised it was TD Bank.  I have personal and business accounts there and am closing them both.  When it was Commerce Bank, they had friendly people there willing to help and has that ever changed.  They are downright RUDE to their clients.  Regis really needs to stop promoting them. 

Glad you got featured.  Maybe someone who can do somthing about this is reading.........

I have not had to personally deal with this bank directly, but I can assure most "customer service" departments re-act in the same manner.

I'm sorry you received such rude customer service. I wouldn't want to deal with that bank if given the choice.

The "silver lining" here is that it ONLY TOOK two months for a disapproval.  Some of us wait far longer only to be shot-down.

It is great that this post got featured (thank you AR gods) to spread the word and to highlight these stories.  This deal might break our record of every short sale listing that we have taken on have all been approved and settled.  Which also shows we do not go this route unless we quantify that the seller has an extreme case of hardship and all other avenues have failed.

More importantly though, I have seen this blog post be reblogged already. I have seen it be retweeted on Twitter and commented on on Facebook.  The power of social media is quite awesome.  It would be quite amazing if we get contacted from TD Bank as a result.  We will see !

I would love to hear your next post on this subject stating that "no -- does not necessarily mean no"...You were "talked at" by the wrong people. I am sorry they acted so terribly. I know you must feel disheartened at this point. I would continue until it was in writing. Perhaps keep plowing through the "no" answers/assaults until you get a YES one.

Chris and Stephanie,

I hope you get answers.  Looks like several agents here have a way of communicating with the higher ups.

Stephanie and Chris,

Chris and I at this juncture are more interested in being able to understand why the short sale was denied so that we can communicate that to the seller.

The seller has a right to know that the decision has a basis of logic behind it.

And as Realtors, we want to understand the process. It is human nature to want to see and understand the mechanics of the machines we use. It makes us better at what we do.

This to me sums it all up.  This is what great Realtors® care about.  This is what makes me read your blog and send you emails.  This is what we do for a living.

This is hard to believe especially given the "bail out funds" these banks received.  Isn't this what it was for?  I wonder about those tax laws Lenn mentioned.  Perhaps those need to be changed.

I suggest that we ALL band together and CALL TD Bank ~ perhaps you can post the phone numbers and extensions for Dawn, Joanne, Jennifer and Art. 

I am amazed at the uncooperativeness and attitudes many of the people have at these companies, if this is their customer service mantra, can you imagine what employee morale must be like?  YIKES!

Loan Mod Fail Think Short Sale ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CThwHxnyoI

I would be surprised if you did didn't get a call from TD Bank.  I hope I never have to deal with tjem on a Short Sale,  We have many accounts with TD Bank, so far no major issues.

Some lenders simply do not wish to spent time on short sales. Too bad that they were rude, but you got the message they intended to convey. Such a small percentage of short sales reach settlement, that it can be difficult to justify funding the efforts. If a lender is in trouble and already short on staff, you can understand their position.

If they do contact you, you might suggest that they put a picture of a mad gorilla on their 'workout' page.

Did they call you yet?  If they don't they're got a screw missing.  Go over their heads straight to the top office. 

Do keep us posted........

We at TD Bank believe in working together to develop a workable plan for the parties involved. In these circumstances for a variety of reasons, we prefer having direct discussion with our customer, even if our customer has given a third party authorization to discuss the issue with them. We need to fully understand the issues so that we can ensure appropriate solutions are developed. After a good discussion a short while ago, the customer added some valuable information that changes the issue significantly and all indications are that we will be able to assist our customer through these difficult times. We're sincerely sorry if anyone has had a bad service experience. We pride ourselves on working hard to provide the best service to all of our customers and business associates.

TD is a growth company with a difference -- we're a North American leader in maximizing our return on every dollar of risk we take. As a result, we're one of the only banks in the world to avoid write-downs due to the subprime mortgage market and have a triple-A rating from Moody's. Thanks for keeping the dialogue open. It is always beneficial. Enjoy your day.

I cannot believe they treated you so rudely. Amazing. I guess they'd rather lose 56% percent of value in a foreclosure rather than 37% in a short sale.

I wonder if Toronto Real Estate Sylvie can help you with better phone/fax/email contact information.

I'd be interested in hearing an update if you get one.

Good luck!

I spoke with a number of different people today, and it seems that when TD Bank took over some of the branches, they took over the employees as well.  Things seem to get worse, before they get better, any time there is a take-over.

However, I was told this was already put in front of a VP and that someone will be looking into this.

I can see from message number 56 that it certainly seems to be the case.
Hopefully TD can get down to the branch level and explain to people what CUSTOMER SERVICE really means.  The employees, whether they are 'old' employees or 'new' employees, should never treat a customer this way.

 

Geesh...

I have so much respect for a man who has the emotional maturity level of a 12 year old. Not :)

TLW...ROAR!

Thank you so much for your help and your comments!

I did speak to the 2 Branch VP's today. One wonderful woman from NJ and the other ;( from the branch in Philadelphia that is handling my client's short sale.

I was horrified with the lack of ethics, poor service, and deficient communication skills that this bank is fostering. I will blog about it tonight. But I am confirmed in my heart and mind that the problem is not systemic. TD Bank in New Jersey was courteous and helpful, even sympathetic. No so much so for the PHILLY TD Bank.

I will be following up with a post this evening for those of you who would like to see how this unfolds.

P.S. The person I spoke to was Jennifer Zimmerman. Wow... she sound good on paper.

Well Jennifer,

If you truly mean that you are committed to helping out the consumer, rather than wasting money taking back the house, then kudos to you, because you are the only bank that has ever responded(so far that I've seen) on Active Rain.

Most of you banks and your asset managers really need to pay attention to what us Realtors are telling you with our proof of comps and OUR LOCAL KNOWLEDGE of the market that your asset is in.  We aren't trying to cheat the banks, we're trying to help out not only the banks, the consumer, but our nation's economy as a whole.  We are not trying to just make a paycheck, because in a short sale after all is said and done, our time and value in doing these things are worth much more what you pay your hourly and salaried employees for working on these issues. 

As Realtors, we care about homeownership, and we want this mess to stop it's further decline.  But that requires help from you, the bank, training your asset managers a little bit(OK, a LOT)better in working out solutions.  Many times, you won't even step foot in the area that the house is located in, so how can your asset manager make an informed descision of of some pictures and some comps?  I have seen banks foreclose over really great short sales, and have lost $hundreds o thousands on a property.  Where is the sense in that?  There's not, that is just plain short sightedness or stupidity. 

And I'd be curious to know what other information the customer added that wasn't given up front two months ago?  Hmmmm....

And yes, train your people to have more common sense and decency.  They are not gods sitting their in their cubicles.  They are dealing with human beings that are certainly not beneath them, and they are customer service people. 

no 56, Ms. Zimmerman: Perhaps you might consider conferencing the third party on file with the borrower? The borrower has obtained their service because they are more knowledgable than they. Homeowner's do not take out mortgages with the INTENT to foreclose, nor do they understand how the process works, what is a good resolution, and what is not. Some respect for the professionals that work on their behalf might go a long way!

To the Somers: I applaud your ability to post this and bring this type of indignation that I see every day to the communities attention. It did what it needed to do, and I hope you are able to keep us up to speed on what the outcome will be. I suspect that while TD may be offering to workout a resolution with the homeowner, they may attempt to avoid the shortsale. I hope that if your client has resolved to so this that this is their primary residence, and are exempt from any tax penalty due to debt forgiveness!

To those of you in the trenches: Look for the higher ups in every case! When you get them, communicate only with them if possible. In addition, it doesn't hurt to ask if you might be able to contact them with subsequent files you may obtain with their institution.

Excellent question Amy! New information...Hummm indeed. Maybe TD Bank thought the third party authorization was a license to be rude. The bank does not represent the borrowers interests and are attempting to collect a debt. When a seller contracts the services of a brokerage company to sell their house short sale or not, they are hiring that company/agent to work on behalf of their best interests to which the bank cares not so with that in mind banks should respect the legally binding contract of representation between seller and broker.

Nice to see they replied in this blog AND that they changed their position. Thumbs up Jennifer.

Gene

Chris,

First, there is no excuse for unprofessional conduct and I'm sorry you had to be subjected to such. Pretty star - hope that is some salve for the wound!

Next, I'll assume that you provided TD Bank with written authorization from the sellers that TD was authorized to fully discuss the account with you. (Otherwise it would be illegal for any bank to discuss any aspect of the mortgage with a third party, listing agent or not.) I've had TD and others talk to me without the unpleasantness to which you were subjected.

Third, see Lenn's point.

Last, we readers have no background on the hardship that the seller's were facing or their prospects for future income generation. (You are right NOT to share that with us.) Perhaps in looking at the income tax returns, pay stubs, bank statements, etc. that you forwarded, TD felt the sellers have/will have the ability to make up the shortfall. Perhaps these sellers fell short of TD's standards of true hardship, which would account for the decision to foreclose. But I am shocked that they didn't explain if this was the case!

Wow!! Great to see a rep from TD bank chime in here. This post is a perfect example of the power of blogging. Let us know how this plays out.

Personally, from a selfish point of view, I'd rather have the house go into foreclosure so I can take my buyers to REO's and not deal with short sale purchases.

In my main market, there are very few REO's but a ton of short sales. I wish they would all go foreclosure, so my clients could actually buy and close on one in 30 days.

I told you it was a selfish point of view, so you don't have to remind me of it.  :)

No experiences with this outfit, but thanks for the heads up about their less than stellar customer service skills!  I definitely will run for my life if I ever hear their name mentioned!  Oh, by the way...Rude People Suck! :o)))

I did not read through all of the comments (because I'd like to be in bed by midnight tonight and you have a lot of comments--good for you!) but I would think that Mr. W. Edmund Clark, the President and CEO would certainly like to hear that you, like TD Bank pride yourself on customer service and are only doing what's best for your mutual client. I would suggest that you contact him by calling the corporate offices: here's the link I found for Mr. Clark (http://www.td.com/president.jsp)

I know that you must be extremely frustrated. So, maybe you can accomplish something positive that will improve the customer service of the underlings at the bank by speaking with Mr. Clark directly.

Melissa, I spoke with the President's Office today and was told that the issues in the United States are looked after in the United States, unfortunately.  However, I don't think a letter to the President's Office will hurt.  Maybe he will pass it on to the US President's Office.

In fact, it may help if we ALL send him a letter and attach this post and comments.  I'm sure no one wants this kind of advertising.

 

Here's some additional information that was just sent to me:

Mr. Bharat Masrani
Group Head, USA Personal & Commercial Banking
President & CEO, TD BANK North America

He lives and works out of the Portland, Maine location. 

I hope this helps.  I am not sure how much more I can find out ... but if I get his email address or number, I'll add it here. :)

 

 

UPDATE:

TD Banknorth Inc.

One Portland Square
P.O. Box 9540
Portland, Maine 04112
United States 

www.tdbanknorth.com
207-761-8517 phone
207-828-7168 fax



There's a link on this page, to contact him directly.

http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=44376420

      

Gosh, guys... that stinks! I'm sorry!

Well in seeing the comment from the rep with TD I will hold off on my comment but please keep us informed. The power of blogging can be amazing and I hope TD will now change their attitude with your client.

So why couldn't the comments made by Jennifer Zimmerman have been made to you . . . LAST MONTH!  They needed to talk to their customer, i.e., the sellers.  OK.  Great.  But, they couldn't tell you that??  What were you supposed to do, read their minds?  I always have MUTUAL CLIENTS -- the borrower and the buyer are mutual clients between myself and the lender.  And this should apply in short sale situations as well.  They are our MUTUAL CLIENTS!

 

call your congressman or women or senator

they help us with short sales

We see this happening at an increasing rate here in Arizona. The lender you spoke about is probably the 'loan servicer'  as the loan was probably sold into mortgage backed securities, and has no authority to change any terms of the loan. Only the group behind them that actually provided the funding can make the decision to accept or decline the short sale. Many times that lender is getting it from both sides.

This entire crisis just needed one bank to step up to the plate, make a system for getting things done and be the champion that made the rest look worse than the snake belly slime they are. 

I am not a bit surprised by this.

I don't understand why banks don't want to work with sellers more than they do in order to prevent foreclosures.  But by that same token, banks are not obligated to do so.

I am thrilled that the power of social media has come together on this situation.  The fact that a TD Bank person came on here is just superb.  Perhaps a serious second look will be assessed and examined here and not just posturing with words.

Stephanie did have a follow-up blog post that we are holding back on for now as the conversations today were quite negative and harsh.  But in thinking of the big picture and the benefit of our client, we are holding to the thought that maybe TD Bank executives will step in and get involved in the process to help facilitate the transaction as well as providing communication on this deal.

Time will tell.

Thank you for all the informative comments !  There will definitely be more updates on this one so stay tuned !  ~ Chris

 

The amazing twist of irony here is that our client, the person that TD Bank has so far refused to work with in this short sale, is a police officer who in 2001 caught a bank robber robbing Commerce Bank in Philadelphia on Walnut St (which is now TD Bank). 

He was awarded for his bravery and was recognized by Commerce Bank for helping catch the bank robber.   Thus, the same people that he helped save lives are now the ones that are potentially denying the short sale.

What are the odds ?

Will end on that note and keep my fingers crossed that TD Bank will come to their senses and help this man and his family.  Sometimes it is just about doing the right thing...

 

Well as far as I know, banks don't have to take short sales. Maybe the loan was insured and they decided to just move along.  I understand that you spend alot of time and effort into the sale, but the decision was not only yours and the sellers.  I had this happen to me 2 years ago and I never knew that they didn't have to take one (SS or workout) if they don't want to. Business decision for them.

Wow...what a story. Good luck with the bank - can't wait to see how it ends up!

It is awesome to see you get a response from TD Bank.  Amy (#62) points out a great fact to the banks that we as real estate professionals are trying to look out for not only the homeowners but everyone involved.

Annoying, ,,,,that customer service can be so poor! That a few people can just decide its not going to happen! What makes this so frustrating is there is accountability in place to resolve this conflidct.

I hope you can find a solution,  Jess

Nice blog post, but sorry that the homeowner has been going through such anguish. I hope this has a happy ending. 

We don't have that many short sales  around here - but I'm thinking its coming - so I read as much as I can.  So - forgive my ignorance, but because of the TARP monies I am getting that it has become HARDER to do short sales....because there is less incentive for the banks to cooperate.

Good for you for posting about your 'customer service' experience. 

Good on Active Rain for featuring your post!

Too bad that when the banks started calling Congressmen and the President(s) that nobody hung up on them and told them to never call again. 

And too bad we couldn't tell them that we don't want to sell their homes... they can rot and never call us again.

I can't wait til tomorrow to see how this turns around!!!  The customer service thing, yeah it's aggrivating and frustrating.  But business is business, what benefit do they have to foreclose which will cost them tens of thousands??  In this market, an offer is great and they run a high risk of having it on their books as a liability in the coming 8 months.  I'm thrilled for you that you finally got somewhere with them.  Doing the "right thing" will rise to the top in the end.  Hang in there!

Thank you so much in sharing your plight.  Many of us work at helping their clients through the maze of the short sale.  Each and every bank is so different.  Hopefully this will bring about a good result for your clients.  By all means keep us updated. ~ Kim

It's amazing how rude some of these short sale dept members are...because they're "so busy." Have you ever wondered that if they're "so busy"... why don't they hire MORE COMPETANT people THAT SPEAK ENGLISH to handle their clients? (Yes YOU COUNTRYWIDE!!) I've watched many of my listings devalue while the banks consider whether they'll do a short sale. Rather than a $50k price loss...why not hire another employee to handle things? WHy not outsource to a company that can manage employees (as long as they're in the U.S.) to process short sales and loss mit on a TIMELY and efficent basis?!

I don't know this TD Bank - but went thru a similar situation with Downey Savings... after months of phone calls... they just would rather foreclose. Same deal with Countrywide on a Seller, after losing, postponing, switching negotioators, extending, evaluating... they say "No, even though WE goofed...we can't extend again.. we'll just need to foreclose. Thank goodness THAT Seller filed a BK. I didn't feel a bit of remorse when the house was vandalized immediately after either. Wonder how much THAT one cost Countrywide (now B OF A). And these ninny's want MORE bailout $$?! Can you say "mortgage implosion list?" If the Real Estate gods are looking down on us... it's time to let these idiots fail. If we can let Chrysler go away... and GM soon to follow... we sure as heck can do without a Countrywide (or BofA!)

 

TD Bank is Canada's third largest bank according to the annual Financial Post 500 rankings published in June 2008 which is published by one of Canada's main business newspapers, the National Post.  The top six banks, which were all founded in Canada many years ago, are:

1)  Royal Bank of Canada (not to be confused with Royal Bank of Canada)

2)  Bank of Nova Scotia (also known as Scotiabank)

3)  Toronto-Dominion Bank (also known as TD Bank and TD Canada Trust.  It also operates the US stock brokerage TD Ameritrade and you may have seen advertising with one of the Law and Order actors)

4)  Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC)

5)  Bank of Montreal (BMO)

6)  National Bank of Canada

 

In the USA, TD Bank has purchased a number of US banks over the years.  In recent years, they have done several acquisitions and made a number of name changes.

 

I hope everything works out well in the foreclosure situation.

 

Sylvie Conde, who is a member of the same real estate board as me in Toronto, has been providing excellent contact information.  Since TD is a large bank, it can be difficult to track down the employees who can help, especially since the US operations are separately managed as subsidiaries of the Canadian bank.

What an obnoxious way to treat anybody, let alone someone trying to find a solution to a difficult problem.

I would send a cerified letter straight to the CEO,CFO and other executives that you can find at TD Bank to let them know of the situation. The executives may wonder why the bank is going down the drain because there are not enough short sales being approved. MOST OF THE BANKS ARE A NIGHTMARE RIGHT NOW.....I sure wish that they were more accountable with OUR bailout money.

Andrew: Reo's are so much nicer, time wise, but unfortunately by the time the home gets to that point, it has been vacant for some time, possibly vandalized, and not appealing to a majority of the buying public excepting investors.  

For years Realtors have known that if the banks hired more workers for their loan mod/short sale depts, and allowed these decisions to be made quickly, the banks would lose much less (Make more money), the homeowners would suffer less, and the Realtors could actually get the home sold for them.  For those realtors who have not handled short sales, they are 10x the work and then the bank decides to pay you less than your fair share of the commision, oh and all of the work is attempting to speak with the right person on the other end of the line.  this is after submitting all of the required forms in quadruplicate because the bank can never find them.  

OK, I am ranting now... but I am sure many of you feel my pain and I am sorry for anyone of us that has to endure the proceedures of dealing with these banks and the myriad of paperwork and unqualified service reps that you have to deal with before receiving a glimpse of a helpful answer.

I was shocked and impressed that Jennifer from TD Bank came here and commented on your situation, and I hope you succeed in leaps and bounds from this point forward.

 

Wow! Interesting blog...I do commend Jennifer for coming on and finally making an attempt to open the doors to communication. HOWEVER, why didn't this happen before??? I agree with a former poster in saying that the loan is probably insured and they really don't give a flip BUT I think that if a loan is insured by any governmental related agency and a bank has received, is receiving, or will receive money from the federal government, then that bank should be made to consider and negotiate short sales. It's called LOSS MITIGATION and they should do their parts to mitigate the losses.

We have learned not to use logical and lender in the same sentence.  A couple suggestions....as this gets to be a war of the wills....IF the buyer is willing or you can get another one...re-submitting another offer and getting a different LM can make all the difference in the world. Another not so easy one...we work with a title company and law firm who does all our short and regular sales....they have gone to bat in court....and the judge ordered Countrywide to negotiate NOT to foreclose....case precedent can be a very valuable weapon not only for this homeowner but should TD have a lot of mortgages in your area...recalling that the next time helps...good luck !

Obviously, the same geniuses that got us into this mess are still running things.  It's gotten so bad that I advise my buyer clients to avoid the short sale and just wait for the foreclosure.  I did inquire about one short sale situation recently and was told that 4 offers were already on the table--one since last August, with no response.  Let's pay some more bonuses and maybe things will improve!

Sally and David,

I have considered the possibility of attempting to get another buyer but the short sale manager and branch executive will not discuss the matter with me.  They do not honor written authorization from the seller to allow me discuss the loan and short sale. Since the TD Bank Branch in Philadelphia does not talk to Realtors I do not know what type of offer they will accept. They have not countered our offer and have made it completely clear that they will not forgive any portion of the loan.

 

Well, of course they are grumpy. You would be too if you had to work on Sunday. Oh, wait realtors do work on Sunday. Well, just be happy the foreclosures are not being handled by comcast or your local cable company. Maybe that's where they learn about customer service?

Anyway, I don't know the details of the "short sale" or the mortgage and the mortgagor. I do know that the act of "short sale" is far to over used. Children need to be told NO once in awhile. But, then I'm kind of grumpy myself today.

I feel for you.  From the loans I have been doing, it seems to be the servicing company that have the control.  I've done two loans owned by the same bank.  One was being serviced by Wells Fargo and was a complete nightmare.  It took us over 100 days to close the loan due to not being able to get responses from the listing agent or servicer.  We had the appraisal, inspections and all work done within the first week (excluding the title - it had to be order 4 times (they kept "losing" the order).  It seemed every time we would call someone was on vacation or sick and the only person who they would even respond to on an email was the listing agent who wouldn't return calls.  We had continual problems getting title work and getting any info at all.  Title work arrived two days before closing.  There were three extension that had to be done due to their own delays.  Each time they kept threatening the client with delay charges and we had to refer to their own contract showing that the customer couldn't be charged if the delays were due to their title company or their own issues.   

The next loan was owned by the same company and I cringed and warned the customer that this could take awhile.  This one was being serviced by Citi and I was shocked that the day after I requested title, not only did the title company call me - I received it.  They were ready to close a foreclosure home in just 30 days.

Both had customers who were 100% preapproved with real downpayments, no self employed wages, scores over 800 and what I would consider "a dream application".  Client number one even had to get a lawyer involved.  Since both loans had to use the bank's title company (the servicer picked the title company so they were different), they were stuck or else pay the fees themselves.  Neither loan sent a mobile closer and I ended up closing the loans for them myself (with authorization from the lending bank).  Goes to show you that it's not just who owns the mortgage, who is servicing the sale makes a big difference.

I've gotten 5 referrals from both clients.  Three came from the first client who had the nightmare purchase.  They both used the same selling agent and have sent her clients also.   Client #1 put a formal complaint on the listing agent for her sale. 

It just goes to show you that even in a bad situation, the customer will remember WHO worked hard for them.  It's how you handle a tough situation that counts to the customer. 

Christopher & Stephanie,

Greetings!

I am just amazed at the time and energy that is needed to deal with short sales due to this "broken" process!  Doesn't anyone think that something needs to be done from our end, as REALTORS... rather than just "dealing" with the process the way that it is?  Our team has started a group on Active Rain - REALTORS For Short Sale Reform - and what we are proposing is that we all band together... author a petition asking for specific action and suggest how these changes might be achieved.  We would then make the petition available to all Real Estate Markets around the country to print and circulate for signatures and send back to a central location to be forwarded on to governmental authorities with a call for action.

Some of the energy and time that we are all spending twisting in the wind with these short sales could be better spent working on something together that might stimulate some movement towards helping to standardize the short sale process from the banking side AND from the Real Estate industry's side.  What we have seen in our market is that REALTORS aren't even handling short sales the same way.  NAR really needs to be involved in revising this process, as well.  What do you all think ... come and join our group REALTORS FOR SHORT SALE REFORM and help us wrestle with this monster!

 

Chris and Stephanie - Wow, I saw a mention of "the power of social media" from you on Twitter last night, but I was out and about and didn't get back to read this until now.  I have to say that regardless of whether they do something about the problem, I am happy to see them engaging online.  I'd prefer they helped, but it's at least a step in the right direction (and one I've been fascinated with this week because of all the buzz surrounding NAR and Midyear).  Good for both of you to push the issue and work diligently for your client.  Good luck, look forward to hearing more on this.

That is insaine, I wonder if the joint colaboration between you, the seller, buyer and bank officials in a face to face meeting would help bring some reasoning to this situation? In any event good luck!

On the positive side, at least you know where they stand.

I feel strongly that banks should be allowed to go out of business. This kind of deceision process and interaction is a great example of why.

Remember this when they come back to you and ask you to do mortgages with them in the future.

Thanks for the post.

A few weeks ago I requested that a certain lender (not this one) send me a transcription of all the phone converations over the past year on a specific address--they transferred me around a few times, and then started moving on the file. 

The bad news on that is the legal guy I talked to said I would need a subpeona (sorry about the spelling) and it would be expensive.  But, I sure did feel good saying the words and watching them jump!

Good luck!

Good grief!  I am really really glad that I don't own stock in this bank!  And they wonder why frustrated people are beginning to resort to the courts in growing numbers. 

With about zero short sale experience and really not looking for any, but trying to understand. I need to ask. What would be the advantage(s) to any lender to keep foreclosure statistics higher than they would be under loss mitigation?  I've read and believe that in Florida the risk of buying liabilities in a short sale exist and foreclose will at least clear the title. The greater the opportunity the greater the risk is what I tell my buyers. There is a small army of entities involved in a short sale. The more humans involved the more room for error. Is it a better for a buyer to purchase a short sale with inherited risk or a foreclosure with clear title, cost of knowable repairs and missing appliances...?

I had one seller that had the potential of a short sale package (hardship). Just wanted to talk short sale and when we got down to the wire... really just wanted to walk. My seller took a first and second mortgage at their closing. With in the first year refinanced and took a cash out. With in the second years was looking to sell at a walk away free and clear price. With in 30 days of listing stop making payments at about 90 days told me they were behind and were interested in doing a short sale. I gave them information on what a package from their bank consisted of. Then there was no more communicating with me. County record showed the foreclosure process started. A service company changed the locks before foreclosure judgment. Leaving my sign and lockbox with door knob still attached lying together on the porch.

Now if you as a realtor had helped a buyer in the purchase of a home and it was profitable to you. Then the same person screwed you on the resale of a home. Your government that had capitalized the profit was now willing socializing your beating. Would you help this person be able to screw me (a brethren) sooner or would you take the tarp and hang'em out to dry. There is plenty of blame to go around, from loan origination thru loss mitigation. I do not believe I would help someone who bought a new vette with cash from their home! Drive away with it free and clear and the ability to do it again anytime soon.  

With the Government running the banks they are getting as good as the government in working with the public.  In general customer service is falling apart in this country.  The fact that the banks are behaving this way makes it hard to feel sorry for them.

Oh yes, the world is falling apart in so many places. It is easy to be rude when you are not in the same room with a person. Anonymity of a phone call. Someone to give the brunt of your anger and frustration...nothing to be proud of...but it happens far too frequently.

Of course, the people dealing with short sales at banks are under a lot of pressure. Impossible amounts of people losing their homes. And they just can't see straight. They lose their focus.

And then there is the army of real estate professionals. We are all really on the same side, banks and us! Lets try to keep our focus, even when the other party does not. Lets try to fight for our rights to get paid for the work we do also!!! At some point, and luckily in many, MANY cases of short sales, the "other party" in the bank DOES see that we are fighting the same enemy. Sadly enough, some individuals are not on the same page, and probably can not see the big picture, but take things personally and treat us as if WE are the enemy. Be proud, Realtors, we are helping out clients AND the banks. Even when they make it so difficult.

Sounds like the typical service the typical bank is offering these days.

Sometimes the people with no power to make decisions, but have to "deliver the bad tidings", are just too frazzled to handle it.  They should look elsewhere for employment, but it sounds like the guys you tried to reason with today are on the brink of a breakdown, or on the brink of a unplanned job change.  Good luck in finding help for your clients.

I read most of the comments, even the one from Jennifer from TD - any update on what is going on? Amazing. Glad you were able to attract so much attention here. I hope it comes to a positive solution for your customer.

OMG, I just read this whole thread...I hope you get it resolved!  What a bad situation!

We need to let our Congressional Representatives know about this.  These banks are taking the government for a sucker- getting bailed out because of their "toxic assets" and then creating more of the same!  It is essential that every agent call or email because many of our representatives are not aware of this and think the problem is being solved!

We do not have any major updates other than the fact that TD Bank has gone from "No means No" to looking at the file again.  It has been frustrating that the bank has requested the same info again and again.  We sent them a HUD-1 (for the 4th time) and was told that it was not a HUD-1.  Hard to explain that in more detail...

It is even more frustrating that TD Bank has the policy to ONLY speak with the customer.  The process is extremely inefficient and these deals are complicated.  It is impossible to throw a consumer in a mix of communicating and even negotiating a short sale.  Why they have this policy I have no idea... Yesterday, we had the fax the HUD-1 to the seller so he then could send it to the bank ???  Hard to explain...

However, the big picture is that we are encouraged that TD Bank is looking at the deal which is a turnaround from before.  Not sure if it is posturing or if it is sincere.   Time will tell.

I read a great article this morning that all banks should read:

Short Sales: Treasury Announces New Programs for Distressed Homeowners

One statistic that was quite staggering was the huge difference in losses for a bank for a foreclosure property versus a short sale property.

Also, it has been amazing all the comments and support that people have provided on this blog post as well as via email.  It is educational for all of us and moving forward, I believe that everyone has a common goal at the end of the day to help stem the foreclosure crisis and work together to get our economy back on track.

Thank you !!

~ Chris Somers

 

These types of sales are difficult for the cooperating broker as well. I have an offer in for 3 months and the seller's attorney is speaking to my buyer, and I have to call the listing agent to find out what's going on. I am going to try to avoid these in the future. Foreclosures are much easier unfortunately.

Wow, what an interesting chain of event. Commerce Bank bought our local bank many years ago and we went with the flow. When TD bought Commerce we wondered what the future would hold. So far all the people we dealt with in the Commercial Loan Department and for our Local Business Accounts are still there and servicing us as well as when they were Commerce.  Lately they have gotten stricter about what they are lending $$ for in real estate. I have to pay a visit to my local branch, I'm going to bring along this URL for the branch manager, she might enjoy the reading!

Wow this made for some good reading (sorry it was at the expense of your experience with TD Bank).  I am rather impressed that they did respond on this blog.  Best of luck to you both!!!

Christopher and Stephanie:

I been saying for a while that the banks should be the same level of energy and quailty of talent into getting out of these loans as they did to get in them.

They have over worked, under qualified people handling the action. They should have share, talented personnel getting them the best they can.

Richard

Thanks again for all the comments !  Hopefully we will have a more specific update on the outcome in the next week or so.  What I do know is that there is a lot of power in social media.   ~ Chris

Could it be that you were upset you didn't get the short sale because you won't receive your commission?

Unanimous.  The answer to your question is NO. But thank you for your insightful thoughts.

We all know how generous realtors are... always caring about other people, and do the work without caring about the commission..

"A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility"

-Lawrence G. Lovasik

Dear Anonymous,

I would assume your pay check hits your TD Bank Checking Account at the same each week, so I am not offended by your comment about commissioned individuals.  Just imagine if your paycheck relied on hard work with so many outside variables such as buyer and seller emotions, public records, Banks, Underwiriters, Appraisers, City and Township officials, and the many others involved in a Real Estate transaction...now imagine if just one piece of this enourmous, confusing puzzle falls out of place and your paycheck didn't hit your account that week.  We all work to paid, it's not a secret.

 

 

When it comes to short sales in the communities we do short sales, commission is typically very low. It is very low compared to the number of hours spent with the client, on the file, on the phone with the bank, working with the attorneys, other agents and their client, and so on.  We do not take anything people say too personally whether it be good (going straight to our head) or bad (dragging down our spirit). We love our job. So many people do not even have jobs in this economic climate. I think many would agree that being a Realtor, an Appraiser, or a Bank or Mortgage Professional right now is not an easy job. It s darn right mind numbing at times!

Tom K. We really like the part of your quote that mentions a cure through honesty and humility. This deal with TD bank has made us realize how small we are and how small our client is in this mortgage mess. All involved are at the end of their rope and solutions are hard to find.

#124 comment: We totally get his or her perspective. We think that way about some service/sales oriented providers, "They just care about the money." But for us and the people on our team and in our office, they work to get paid and they work because they care. If you do not care you will not last in this industry.

"A clever man has smart answers, while a smart man has clever questions."

"Some people are educated beyond their own intelligence."

We can go round and round with catchy quotations, but typically speaking, it is about the money.  Your office must be above the norm with truly caring about the customers, and that is appreciated; however, while I am neither a TD Bank customer nor employee, I can tell you from past experiences that my real estate agents would bail and be MIA at the first sign of trouble.  If your office truly cares about the customer, even though there is a chance of not receiving a dime, then you may be receiving a call from me in the future to do business.  Just don't give me the high and mighty speech about how noble agents are when it is a competive job and about the commission checks.

We have references upon request :)

Too funny I'm just finding this now....I literally just was HUNG UP on by Dawn Dean herself.  She is the most rude person I have ever spoken to in my life.  We tried to work with TD Bank before my ex husband and myself got to where we are today, and they flately refused to offer any suggestion and listen to our suggestions.  I was yelled at and hung up today, when I called to talk to her about our short-sale.  I said to her, what if we don't agree to pay off the difference, and she said THEN WE DON'T AGREE TO THE SHORT-SALE, NO SHORT SALE!, so I aske if it goes to forclosure, you won't get anything right?  And her reply was WE'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING ON THIS SHORT SALE EITHER!!!

I work in customer service every day, and would NEVER ever talk to someone the way she did, all of our calls are recorded and I would lose my job if I was even 1% as rude as she was to me. 

Debbie,

That branch of TD Bank is a terrible reflection on the entire TD Banking system. Our experience was so bad that it was almost hard to believe it was real. The rudeness was so over the top I actually remember thinking to myself... "This has to be a joke, right?" Wrong!

My original blog post got a decent response. Someone like yourself really needs to take the torch and get the word out there regarding this aggressive and abusive approach to serving the consumer. It is not going to get better until the higer executives in TD bank hear what is happening.

 

This is my story

 

TD Bank is refusing to accept a mortgage payoff on a sale of a property unless

•1.     I pay them $33,000 or

•2.     Sign an agreement to allow them to call in my other two mortgages earlier than they are due

TD Bank holds mortgages on 3 properties on which my business, AllState Fence is located. I own the properties along with my brother as M & S Realty. Last year, TD Bank called in our $1 million revolving line of credit even though we were never late a payment and continued all our monthly payments. At this point, Charles T. Forrest from TD Bank threatened to foreclose on all our properties cross-collateralized on the loan if we didn't pay the line of credit in full. Our only option was to sign a forbearance agreement which gave us 3 months to find alternate financing. They charged us $20,000 for this. Alternate financing was found for $650,000 through a hard money high interest Business credit loan. After this loan closing and receiving $650,000, Charles Forrest at TD than charged us another $10,000 forbearance (extortion) fee  to extend the remaining line of credit balance to be paid down at $20,000/month which currently continues to be paid at $5000/week.

When one of the balloon mortgages on one of the properties was due to expire, fortunately a buyer was found to satisfy the entire mortgage payoff. A closing date was set a few weeks after the mortgage expiration date due to some township /land use issues, however the mortgage payments remained current and continued to be withdrawn directly from our checking account. Because of the extenuating circumstances with the township, Charles Forrest and his boss Ed Moran had verbally agreed that the bank would waive any late fees on the mortgage as long as the debt was paid. We even sold the property substantially less for a quick closing to pay off the mortgage debt. So when we received the mortgage settlement charges for the closing, it included a $33,000 late fee and default rate much to my surprise. When an inquiry was made via email, TD agreed to waive the late fees only if another forbearance agreement was signed which would let them call in the balloon payments on the other 2 mortgages earlier than they are due. These mortgages still continue to be paid monthly. Now TD is holding the sale of the property hostage, refusing to accept a full mortgage payment even if the $33,000 late fee is paid, unless we agree to their forbearance (extortion) terms.

Please help us. Time is of the essence and we only want to sell our property.

 

Below are any phone numbers you may need for your investigation

Michael Skrable -owner and Mortgage holder (732)814-3832

Charles T. Forrest- (856)874-2488- TD Bank N.A.

I was under the strong impression that TD Bank was working with customers to refinance and work out the problems.

Brian Callahan

Chicago, IL

They left a poor impression on me and my client.

These guys at TD Bank are thieves. These guys have the nerves to charge me $ 175 overdraft fees and do not want to refund me any of it after I deposited $ 2,659 into my account on a sunday. They're pretending to open 7 days a week but what is good for if they can't process any checks. The federal needs to shut these guys down because they are a bunch of thieves.

Ok, its now August 2011. TD bank approved what they are calling a "so called short sale" and then said tis contingent of me paying the entire shortage of 68,000 and not releasing the note until its paid in full. Um, whats the point?

I agree. I think TD has horrible policies and are bulies in the banking industry. Nothing has changed. They contribute to the problem and are NOT advocates for those who use thier services.

Have you tried to negotiate the 68K note?

 

I have to say that I list and sell OREO's for T D Bank, NA and have had a great experience with the asset managers that I work with in.  The Short Sale Dept AMs sound very unprofessional. Wonder if they are still working there.

TD Bank loves to screw people over with a smile. The people there are rude and unprofessional. I hope they all suffer a painful episode in there lives for all all the hurt they put on good american people and families suffering thru this tough economy